The ban list.

[ConcernedCitizen]

The real question about the bans is if the reset should be complete or partial. That is, should we allow everyone to start with a clean slate or should we make an exception for the big names (jyan, terion, pav, Ian, Giratina, Nlewis, Pwol, Sparky, Ryan, etc). keeping them banned

I think it can be said without any argument Pavja and Jyan each did a considerable amount more harm than Ian, Lewis, Pwol, and Giratina ever did combined.

Hypothetically, (with Pavja and largely memorable griefs as exceptions) the more prominently known names are due to the large amount of controversy that surrounded cases - making the crime much less definitive (probably a bad word for it) or simply subjective. Whereas the less known permanbanned are blatant hackers, griefers, and x-rayers who were indisputably banned. If anything, the controversial cases are the ones who deserve (at least more than the other cases) compassion the most.

To be fair I don't think Pavja ever really made a final ban appeal but just rage-quit after he was rebanned for the 4th or 5th time - it's possible his last ban was more controversial than the one-sided view of the moderators made it appear. However one specific player certainly shouldn't impact the way we approach the ban list as a whole. I think that (with the exception of Terion who was loud) the real thing about all the 'big names' is that they were people who may have hurt the server in some significant way but also contributed a great deal to the player experience by being active and engaged with the community. I agree that the people who were banned within the week are probably less likely to help revive the server than the people who contributed to the community for several months before leaving of their own accord (Blackout, Kubrick, arguably Pavja) or having appeals denied (the rest of the list).

[sethd13]

^This^ All the "Well people don't really like them and we don't have any real case, oh fuck it BAN" things should be re-evaluated

[Crashlander04]

The real question about the bans is if the reset should be complete or partial. That is, should we allow everyone to start with a clean slate or should we make an exception for the big names (jyan, terion, pav, Ian, Giratina, Nlewis, Pwol, Sparky, Ryan, etc). keeping them banned

I think it can be said without any argument Pavja and Jyan each did a considerable amount more harm than Ian, Lewis, Pwol, and Giratina ever did combined.

Hypothetically, (with Pavja and largely memorable griefs as exceptions) the more prominently known names are due to the large amount of controversy that surrounded cases - making the crime much less definitive (probably a bad word for it) or simply subjective. Whereas the less known permanbanned are blatant hackers, griefers, and x-rayers who were indisputably banned. If anything, the controversial cases are the ones who deserve (at least more than the other cases) compassion the most.

To be fair I don't think Pavja ever really made a final ban appeal but just rage-quit after he was rebanned for the 4th or 5th time - it's possible his last ban was more controversial than the one-sided view of the moderators made it appear. However one specific player certainly shouldn't impact the way we approach the ban list as a whole. I think that (with the exception of Terion who was loud) the real thing about all the 'big names' is that they were people who may have hurt the server in some significant way but also contributed a great deal to the player experience by being active and engaged with the community. I agree that the people who were banned within the week are probably less likely to help revive the server than the people who contributed to the community for several months before leaving of their own accord (Blackout, Kubrick, arguably Pavja) or having appeals denied (the rest of the list).

It can be said for a fact that Pavja left much less gracefully than he should have, and did attempt much damage to the server on a purposeful basis. He's hardly an arguable case considering the proven x-ray and continuous attempts to hurt the reputation of the server with blatant lies and slander after he was caught and punished.

[geckosquid]

The real question about the bans is if the reset should be complete or partial. That is, should we allow everyone to start with a clean slate or should we make an exception for the big names (jyan, terion, pav, Ian, Giratina, Nlewis, Pwol, Sparky, Ryan, etc). keeping them banned

I think it can be said without any argument Pavja and Jyan each did a considerable amount more harm than Ian, Lewis, Pwol, and Giratina ever did combined.

Hypothetically, (with Pavja and largely memorable griefs as exceptions) the more prominently known names are due to the large amount of controversy that surrounded cases - making the crime much less definitive (probably a bad word for it) or simply subjective. Whereas the less known permanbanned are blatant hackers, griefers, and x-rayers who were indisputably banned. If anything, the controversial cases are the ones who deserve (at least more than the other cases) compassion the most.

To be fair I don't think Pavja ever really made a final ban appeal but just rage-quit after he was rebanned for the 4th or 5th time - it's possible his last ban was more controversial than the one-sided view of the moderators made it appear. However one specific player certainly shouldn't impact the way we approach the ban list as a whole. I think that (with the exception of Terion who was loud) the real thing about all the 'big names' is that they were people who may have hurt the server in some significant way but also contributed a great deal to the player experience by being active and engaged with the community. I agree that the people who were banned within the week are probably less likely to help revive the server than the people who contributed to the community for several months before leaving of their own accord (Blackout, Kubrick, arguably Pavja) or having appeals denied (the rest of the list).

It can be said for a fact that Pavja left much less gracefully than he should have, and did attempt much damage to the server on a purposeful basis. He's hardly an arguable case considering the proven x-ray and continuous attempts to hurt the reputation of the server with blatant lies and slander after he was caught and punished.

Exactly. Pavja deserved to be banned, and his post-banning shenanigans cemented the fact to the point of absolute undeniability.

---

And pavja did not leave of his own accord. He was banned twice and wouldn't leave the server alone for weeks on end after the second banning. It was rather pathetic, really.

[Crashlander04]

The real question about the bans is if the reset should be complete or partial. That is, should we allow everyone to start with a clean slate or should we make an exception for the big names (jyan, terion, pav, Ian, Giratina, Nlewis, Pwol, Sparky, Ryan, etc). keeping them banned

I think it can be said without any argument Pavja and Jyan each did a considerable amount more harm than Ian, Lewis, Pwol, and Giratina ever did combined.

Hypothetically, (with Pavja and largely memorable griefs as exceptions) the more prominently known names are due to the large amount of controversy that surrounded cases - making the crime much less definitive (probably a bad word for it) or simply subjective. Whereas the less known permanbanned are blatant hackers, griefers, and x-rayers who were indisputably banned. If anything, the controversial cases are the ones who deserve (at least more than the other cases) compassion the most.

To be fair I don't think Pavja ever really made a final ban appeal but just rage-quit after he was rebanned for the 4th or 5th time - it's possible his last ban was more controversial than the one-sided view of the moderators made it appear. However one specific player certainly shouldn't impact the way we approach the ban list as a whole. I think that (with the exception of Terion who was loud) the real thing about all the 'big names' is that they were people who may have hurt the server in some significant way but also contributed a great deal to the player experience by being active and engaged with the community. I agree that the people who were banned within the week are probably less likely to help revive the server than the people who contributed to the community for several months before leaving of their own accord (Blackout, Kubrick, arguably Pavja) or having appeals denied (the rest of the list).

It can be said for a fact that Pavja left much less gracefully than he should have, and did attempt much damage to the server on a purposeful basis. He's hardly an arguable case considering the proven x-ray and continuous attempts to hurt the reputation of the server with blatant lies and slander after he was caught and punished.

Exactly. Pavja deserved to be banned, and his post-banning shenanigans cemented the fact to the point of absolute undeniability.

---

And pavja did not leave of his own accord. He was banned twice and wouldn't leave the server alone for weeks on end after the second banning. It was rather pathetic, really.

At a second glance, I'm actually astonished someone could vaguely compare Pavja to any other offender. It's one thing to be wrong in assimilating the quitting of LittleBlackout with the post-ban upset Pavja caused, but to even compare the 'hurt' any other offender had done to the server is naive and ignorant.

Pavja honestly, and realistically, even makes other x-rayers look good in comparison; it actually makes bans for 'ruining players experience' (AKA PvPing too well to be considered RP, and not obeying flimsy unofficial rules) look ridiculous.

[sethd13]

Pavja honestly, and realistically, even makes other x-rayers look good in comparison; it actually makes bans for 'ruining players experience' (AKA PvPing too well to be considered RP, and not obeying flimsy unofficial rules) look ridiculous.

Yus yus yus Don't compare pavja who was out to fuck up kiwike for revenge, to solitude who weren't doing anything wrong in the rule book but people got so angry that they started yelling until they got banned.

[tristo999]

Pavja honestly, and realistically, even makes other x-rayers look good in comparison; it actually makes bans for 'ruining players experience' (AKA PvPing too well to be considered RP, and not obeying flimsy unofficial rules) look ridiculous.

Yus yus yus Don't compare pavja who was out to fuck up kiwike for revenge, to solitude who weren't doing anything wrong in the rule book but people got so angry that they started yelling until they got banned.

Hate To prove you wrong But I think most of Solitude had so many bans/warns it was ban worthy for that alone. The reason they were banned was the last straw. Dont believe me? kiwike.se/banlist.php 3rd page. It takes up almost the whole page with offences. Solitude was banned for a perfectly good reason!

[Leech]

Pavja honestly, and realistically, even makes other x-rayers look good in comparison; it actually makes bans for 'ruining players experience' (AKA PvPing too well to be considered RP, and not obeying flimsy unofficial rules) look ridiculous.

Yus yus yus Don't compare pavja who was out to fuck up kiwike for revenge, to solitude who weren't doing anything wrong in the rule book but people got so angry that they started yelling until they got banned.

Don't feel like opening this can of worms again, but heaven fucking forbid that I, along with many others, actually wanted to be able to enjoy the server

[geckosquid]

Pavja honestly, and realistically, even makes other x-rayers look good in comparison; it actually makes bans for 'ruining players experience' (AKA PvPing too well to be considered RP, and not obeying flimsy unofficial rules) look ridiculous.

Yus yus yus Don't compare pavja who was out to fuck up kiwike for revenge, to solitude who weren't doing anything wrong in the rule book but people got so angry that they started yelling until they got banned.

Hate To prove you wrong But I think most of Solitude had so many bans/warns it was ban worthy for that alone. The reason they were banned was the last straw. Dont believe me? kiwike.se/banlist.php 3rd page. It takes up almost the whole page with offences. Solitude was banned for a perfectly good reason!

Well, the rules they broke are ones that were not defined specifically enough from the beginning, which is what made it such a difficult case. I think the staff is partly to blame for the issue given the vagueness of the rules, and yes, I am very much included in that statement. The difference between Solitude and pavja is that one can easily make an argument against the latter to make the ban sound justified, but to provide an argument for the banning of Solitude really just makes one sound weak and flimsy.

[Crashlander04]

Pavja honestly, and realistically, even makes other x-rayers look good in comparison; it actually makes bans for 'ruining players experience' (AKA PvPing too well to be considered RP, and not obeying flimsy unofficial rules) look ridiculous.

Yus yus yus Don't compare pavja who was out to fuck up kiwike for revenge, to solitude who weren't doing anything wrong in the rule book but people got so angry that they started yelling until they got banned.

Don't feel like opening this can of worms again, but heaven fucking forbid that I, along with many others, actually wanted to be able to enjoy the server

As much as you had every right to enjoy the server, the rules never officially limited the endless use of PvP for RP reasons (which they did have contrary to popular belief).
I do fully agree Solitude should have been less violent and more apt to discussion for their goals (which were, everybody should accept, to conquer the world and gain revenge for conflicts they had taken part in), however much of the damage was caused by the ignorance or pride of the leadership of Promethia. The refusal to fight back against an RP enemy and constant threat, the further provocation and instigation of Solitude, and in many cases the complete denial of blatant RP reasoning did very well cause much of the damage.

They did raid constantly, but as was backed by their RP experiences and bakcground. Solitude, hypothetically was only fulfilling their attempted conquest and defeat of Promethia.

I remember a point at which Promethia was boasting of having over 40 members. Solitude had 4 dependable ones. The fact that Promethia's leadership could not gather enough strength to fight off four enemy invaders is, if anything, still more of a fault on themselves.

To deny reasonability to these claims that Solitude did attempt to RP is ignorant - several propositions and ultimatums were put forward by the warmongers as attempts to settle the matter (whether or not the general public liked or accepted them). It was only stated by unprecedented, arbitrary and vague rules that they were banned, as the ruining of player experience by overly active PvP (with RP reason)was never announced in any formal or fair manner to be against the rules in anything but an exaggerated case.

I don't want to start a flame war here. I'm just stating fair arguments from my perspective.